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2-person semi-accurate occupancy system?

 
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2-person semi-accurate occupancy system?
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CribKeeper
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 653
Location: Overland Park, KS

Post 2-person semi-accurate occupancy system? Reply with quote
The theory is fairly simple:

You connect the dots on your motion (any presence detector) detectors.

Living Room West Motion <---> Living Room East Motion
Living Room East Motion <---> Kitchen Entrance Motion
Kitchen Entrance Motion <---> Kitchen Sink Motion

So if you have 1 occupant and he is at the West motion detector, and the kitchen sink motion goes off, that is a violation of the 1 occupant rules and there must be another occupant because the motion detectors inbetween did not go off, so we can fire an occupancy alarm.

Now with these same rules, we can have tighter Vacancy rules. Normally after the kitchen stops seeing motion, a 1 or 2 minute timer starts and when it is done, it turns the lights out. But with these rules, when the Living Room East Motion Detector goes off, we know the Kitchen is vacant now, so we turn the lights off instantly. Basically we set the number of rooms allow to have the Occupied status to equal the number of occupants. When ever you enter a room, all other rooms be now be considered vacant.

Ok, this logic is pretty sound with 1 person and will be the default logic included. But as you add occupants, this system falls apart and is not used. Room will just use their default timers and no Vacancy will be forced. But I think I can make decent tracking of 2 people and if so could disable the tracking when a 3rd showed up.

So I guess what I am looking for is to know whether people would want any of this logic in the first place. If so, is there interest in building these formulas publicly so people can contribute their unique situations so we can evolve the rules together, or just let people modifly them on their own...

Anyways, food for though...
Vaughn

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Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:40 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CribKeeper
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 653
Location: Overland Park, KS

Post more info Reply with quote
Well, I should say some of the rules fall apart with 2+ people. Some will still work with any number of people. for example:

5 people are in a house, all of them are down stairs and their bedrooms are upstairs, down a hall. Regarless of the # of occupants, if a bedroom window or motion detector is triggered, the rules dictate that none of the known occupants could have triggered the bedroom events because they could not get there without triggering Stairs and Hallway events first, so there must be an intruder, so notify the locations with known occupants that there is a Security threat upstairs.

These rules have their limitations but are worlds above what any ADT type alarm package can provide. A pratical example is if there is kitchen motion then the kitchen window opens, I did it. But if the Kitchen has been vacant then the window opens, and then there is kitchen motion, someone had entered the house through the kitchen window. I can fire an alarm based on this no matter what mode the house is in.

The system can be advanced enough that you don't even have to worry about setting the alarm because its logic is protecting you ALL the time, under any circumstances...

Some of this I have implemented in my current setup manually, like the kitchen window rules. But I propose wrapping all of this up into an Occupancy subsystem. I realize unless you put motion detectors in almost every room that this may not affect you, but I think it will add enough value that people will expand to get the benefits.

Anyways, the topic fits in the roadmap section here and unless I get crazy, it not a priority at this time and is just slated for future versions.

Vaughn

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Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:35 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Humanzee



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 519
Location: Seattle, WA

Post Reply with quote
I like the idea, I like the logic. It needs to be configurable though regarding security. My wireless motion sensors are not 100% reliable, think low batteries, poor antenna placement etc. Sometimes they miss me all together when I walk by. So it depends on the system.

This sort of conditional logic could be useful purely for automation too. Sometimes we sit so still while watching TV that the room goes to vacant status. If there has been no other motion in the house, logic should override the timer and keep the Tv room occupied. Else the fact that the HTPC is playing a video file, mouse is moving, computer is not in sleep mode should keep the room occupied and keep the lights on, etc.

The same logic could be expanded to include door sensors. They don't necessarily trigger occupancy. It depends on the direction you are traveling. This also illustrates a need to kill occupancy on demand, or short the time out to 0 seconds conditionally. We spoke about this before but couldn't come up with an example at the time.

The pre-beta occupancy time out method is simple and effective and cleans up after you, but there are some things to be desired. For some rooms its hard to balance the time out with your use level. I.e. the garage, we are either in their for less than a minute or there is lots of activity, coming and going to the yard, working on something. 1 minute is too short when you are working out there, but 5 minutes is too long when you are just walking from the car to the house. With this method you could kill the lights or occupancy as soon as the garage door closed behind you etc.

Also with the difficult bathroom situation. If the door is closed and there has been motion inside, occupancy will not end until the door is opened again. VCrib turned the lights out on my wife when she was in the shower and out of sensor view.

Maybe there should be room properties. I.e. number of conventional entrances/exits. Number of egress windows etc. Assign devices to a location but also as an access sensor or not. Door is open, location is accessible thus use default occupancy time out unless ___. It gets tricky because if the bathroom window is open doesn't mean you could climb out of it.

Eventually there should be additional environment variables for each location that could determine occupancy or some other action. The bathroom door is closed, I've seen no motion since the door was closed , however, the humidity is higher than normal. Turn on the fan until humidity returns to within 5% of the humidity level in the next room.
blah blah blah. Or turn on the fan for x minutes if the door is closed after vacancy is triggered. I.e. the "Light a match in there" action.
Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:40 pm View user's profile Send private message
Humanzee



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 519
Location: Seattle, WA

Post Reply with quote
Also,
Occupancy for more than one person could get tricky for rooms like bedrooms. I.e. My wife gets up before me, so I'm in bed not moving. She goes to work and the house assumes that the bedroom is vacant. Then all of a sudden the room has motion detected and goes into alarm because I finally got out of bed. Or we both get up at the same time and the house assumes that one person is still in the room after we are both gone. Granted, changing the security mode should configure all occupancy levels to suit. eh?

I still haven't configured modes and users. Just lighting automation for me so far.
Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:57 pm View user's profile Send private message
Boshansstudios



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Saginaw, MI

Post Reply with quote
I think I know how you could fix you and your wife leaving at different times. What if some body invented a pressure sensor that if weight over certain amount is applied, then person occupying. One of these sensors could be set up on each side of the bed, and would detect when one person was there. Now I know this wouldn't work if you rolled over on the other side etc.
This system could also be useful if you have cats or something. Say they walk into a room but you don't want a normal motion sensor to go off just for your cat. The weight could be set so its way more than your cats weight, but as much as a small child's etc. Just some thoughts.
Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:01 pm View user's profile Send private message
CribKeeper
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 653
Location: Overland Park, KS

Post Reply with quote
There are pressure sensing products out there, like Pulsors (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php?cat=123)

They are all so limited and expensive though. I think the only solution is an RFID system with enough range control that you could put sensors in about half of the rooms, logic could do the rest. But RFID is not making much headway into the home market. CheaperRFID basically said "Phuck the home market" and iAutomate is unresponsive to its customers to the point no one wants to deal with them...

So the future is on hold until some company realized that oiccupancy tracking will change the world and decides to be part of it... There is always face recognition too, but who wants cameras inside their house?

Until then, I will hack away at software solutions...

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Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boshansstudios



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Saginaw, MI

Post Reply with quote
I realy need to learn more about electronics, and programming, but i'm a mere 16. Oh well theres a time for everything. Anyways I wonder if there is a way to take a common electronic scale just sitting around the hose, and hack it so you could use it as a cheap pressure sensor. I have no idea how to do this. i'm just trying to get the ball rollin.
Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:06 pm View user's profile Send private message
CribKeeper
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 653
Location: Overland Park, KS

Post Reply with quote
I started coding at 13, and wrote my first Natural Language Processing app at 16. Had my first programming job writing Bank software at 18 and then dropped out of college right away =) You are not too your to start. You could have a career by the time you should be starting college. =)


REMEMBER Universities are just businesses wanting your money. Learn all you need from the NET and be $50k ahead of the game! Do not buy their brainwashing. Wikipedia can teach you more than all the classes combined!

Phisgets.com (TrossenRobotics.com) has multiple pressure sensors that will connect to vCrib now. They even have a USB scale to weight people....


Vaughn

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Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:11 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
SnyperBob



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 630
Location: Illinois

Post Reply with quote
The cheapest way to figure out if you or your wife are still in the room/bed is to just use two motion detectors.

I guess this depends on your habits, but my wife gets out of one side of the bed and I get out of the other side. To solve the problem, I would just use one motion detector on each side of the bed aimed to trigger when we get out.

But there's always other issues. What if the dog/cat is sleeping on the bed and jumps down? Kids running in and out, etc...

But overall, two motion detectors would be the simplest...
Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:46 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
SnyperBob



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 630
Location: Illinois

Post Reply with quote
CribKeeper wrote:
There are pressure sensing products out there, like Pulsors (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php?cat=123)

They are all so limited and expensive though.


What about the phidgets pressure sensing stuff? It's only like $15-$30 each and I believe you can adjust a POT resistor to allow for certain weight thresh holds. ie....don't trigger when dog walks over pressure strip.

$25, looks nice for stair steps:
http://www.trossenrobotics.com/24i-Force-Sensing-Resistor-Kit.aspx

Check it out, works with Phidgets 8/8/8

$15:
http://www.trossenrobotics.com/1-5i-Force-Sensing-Resistor-Kit.aspx
Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:48 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
CribKeeper
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 653
Location: Overland Park, KS

Post Reply with quote
I have these strips but I did not have any luck using the resistors to change the sensitivity enough to notice a difference in tripping force. I did not have them hooked to my analog inputs though, I was trying to control the trip point to activate a DS10A to make them wireless.

I have to hook them up to the analog inputs and see if I can measure the difference between me and my dog. There are to replace the simple on off switchs I use on my stairs now.

There are also Pulsar vibration sensors you can attach to floor joists that can tell the difference in weight, etc. I really like bluetooth triangulation options now. Me and my roommate both have smartsphones with bluetooth, so another future project there...


Vaughn

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Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:10 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
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